Never met a nice South African, but that's not bloody surprising mun

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Never met a nice South African, but that's not bloody surprising mun Empty Never met a nice South African, but that's not bloody surprising mun

Post by quind on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:15 am

So going into the game with somewhat lower expectations what should our matchday squad be?

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Launchbury
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Flood
Monye
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

Paice
Wilson
Vunipola
Palmer
Johnson
Youngs
Burns
Brown

I might have to give that some though if Corbisiero was declared fully fit. But Marler has gone well against SA recently, and like Waldrom last week I tend to think you should get more than one bad game to play yourself out of the team. If Gray is fit he can go on the bench ahead of Paice, and if Lawes is fit he can go to the bench ahead of Palmer.

The following players are improving in their absence from the team Hartley, Garvey, Morgan, the other Vunipola, Wade and the big one Armitage. I feel a little sorry for Armitage, expectations on what he can do will have hit absurd levels by the time we wake up to reality and pick him.

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Post by Flu444 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:49 am

i would be tempted to see what farrel can do at 12 inside flood. Also would love to see Varndel blooded in at some point. i saw him at the Dubai 7's couple of years ago and he has the potenial. apparently he is scoring tries for fun.

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Post by quind on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:05 am

Will Greenwood proved you can play 12 without much pace, but it is much harder both to play yourself and hold a defence from drifting if they flat out don't believe you're a running threat. Greenwood had movement, great support lines and a good passing game. Farrell can kick a little bit. Farrell may yet make himself a test standard 10, if perhaps a limited one, I can't see how he bridges the gap to become a test standard 12.

Varndell is fast, and an excellent finisher. But England don't create chances, and he's a liability in defence. In a different England team Varndell could have been a star, in this one he'd just get a lot of criticism I fear.

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Post by Meeeeeeeat_ on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:22 am

completely agree with your starting xv. and although i think furns should be brought in, i dont think farrell should be phased out. perhaps as flu said play him at 12 for a while.
and for varndell - wasps put him in space and he runs fast. thats all, any wing could really do what he does. its the skill of the backline to get him away, not his own skill (from what i've seen)
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Post by quind on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:48 pm

I think Farrell is an impressively determined lad, with a a terrific will to win. He's also a good place kicker. But I'm not sure why anyone should be playing 10 or 12 for England when they don't pass or run, and don't seem even close to sure of how to move a team forwards. With such big problems I do not agree the England test matchday squad is the place to learn.

And whilst there are big issues with Varndell it's not the case any wing could do his job, he's much faster.

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Post by Meeeeeeeat_ on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:22 pm

well ok i meant anyone with his pace. my point was he's not that skilled. just fast.
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Post by quind on Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:03 pm

Finishing tries isn't a skill without merit, but I'll accept the wider point

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Post by Basil on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:45 pm

Marler out

And Varndell's defence has come on leaps and bounds since he joined Wasps - it was his tackle on Vesty that kept us in the Premiership last season

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Post by Basil on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:45 pm

I would play Sharples over Ashton too

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Post by quind on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:49 pm

Varndell's defence may have improved, but that was a shocker of a non tackle to lose the opening game to Quins. And against the explosive power runner that is Nick Evans.

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Post by Raggs on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:53 pm

Mako to start, Corbs on at halftime?
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Post by quind on Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:58 pm

They'll have to see how they go in training and then make a judgement call. Good reasons for starting/benching either way, problem for the coach is that in hindsight there are bad ones too

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Post by Wilz on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:27 am

Basil wrote:I would play Sharples over Ashton too

Sharples has been dropped. And personally, although people may think I'm biased, I would far rather see Eastmond or Biggs in the team than Varndell even though this is Eastmonds first full season. As Monye isn't in the squad either it looks like it will be Brown or Joseph on the left wing against the boks.
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Post by quind on Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:36 am

Or Tuilagi on the wing with Joseph at centre.

I've never understood this notion that Burt has that left wingers are an optional extra in selection. Lots of work to do on the blindside in defence, and in most teams the most likely source of a try with 50% of all tries being scored to the left of the posts (10-15% under the posts, and the rest 35-40% to the right)

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Post by quind on Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:37 am

Johnson and Waldrom dropped too. Which just seemed inevitable from the off based on ability and balance of selection.

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Post by Basil on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:39 am

Still no number 7 in the squad though, and why Haskell is still there beats me

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Post by Meeeeeeeat_ on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:52 pm

Marler injured, but corbs declared fit and i think restored to starting lineup.
launchbury also starting, deservedly
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Post by Meeeeeeeat_ on Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:37 pm

England team to face South Africa
15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps)
10. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)

1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 cap)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps)

Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 cap)
19. Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps)
23. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps)

think i prefer this lineup. still needs improvements though
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Post by quind on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:59 pm

Bit of a mix really. Much better from England, but with many of the same problems and now a shaky lineout and restart game have been added.

SA never got close to posing the same problems as Australia, but then they don't try to play with much intelligence.

I suppose we could moan that that was never a try, and it wasn't, but really we need to look at our ball skills and set piece before we worry about the TMO. I would like some of whatever the TMO was smoking however.

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Post by Raggs on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:42 am

The lineout problem came from the fact that SA understood Youngs was playing the same throw every time. Personally, I'm just grateful that the English spotted that they'd been rumbled, and started changing it up. That meant Youngs had a few iffy throws, but at least we became slightly more unpredictable.

Launchbury had a fantastic game, got to be a regular starter now.

How did Mako do in the scrum, my feed was choppy and hard to tell. I saw him drop that one ball unfortunately, how about the rest of his game?

I'm still not sure if the 3 points at the end was the right decision (not sure if it was the wrong one either), what I do know is that whichever decision we were going to take, we didn't need to take half an hour over it!
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Post by quind on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:23 am

Mako was okay when he came on, but certainly for me Corbs justified being the starting loosehead.

Tom Youngs did struggle with the lineout, but that was a known when he was picked. If it's still an issue in another 2 years it'll be an issue, for now it's more an as expected. It wasn't just the lineout that went wrong though, we were all over the shop at the restarts. Francois Pienaar does a big spiel on if you control the restarts you control the emotion of the game, and never is that more true than against a team like SA. England kept encouraging SA to work hard in the game when ideally we'd have enforced the dominance we did show elsewhere. And the restarts were a long way from Tom Young's fault, thought in many player ratings are not being held against the locks.

Launchbury had some issues, but for a first start with the players he was against that was very, very good.

And Botha lived nicely up to his billing as Fumbles the Clown. Had we taken that restart perhaps Robshaw would have been lauded after the game. Though I agree we took too long to take the pen in the first place, decision and then the kick, and it was laughable that having asked for the kick at goal we then asked if we could kick for the corner.

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