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London Welsh 5 point deduction

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Post by quind Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:08 pm

Have to say before the judgement was made public I was thinking they'd get a 2 point deduction imposed, but now on reading the judgment think they're lucky to get only 5 points knocked off. And yet they've announced they will appeal this, which I assume means the suspension can't be extended.

Just wondering if any of you are lawyers or law students if you could briefly set out respondeat superior and how that pertains to the tort doctrine works here, they're going a bundle on this being a rogue employee.

For anyone interested in the judgment:

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/discipline/judgements/judgments-2012-2013/judgments-by-club/aviva-premiership/~/media/files/2013/discipline/judgments/aviva%20premiership/london%20welsh.ashx

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Post by quind Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:39 am

Well, further thoughts on a new morning. Firstly I'm still quite angry at just how absurd the actions of LW are, there are players and fans potentially badly let down and they're offering sod all by way of apology (even if quite likely that's difficult to do from a legal standpoint), and also angry at their attempt to paint themselves as the victim in this.

The judgement set out that as there was a fine imposed no costs would be attributed to LW, but I can't think that will be the same for an appeal. So that they're saying they will appeal means I'm guessing (as there don't seem sensible grounds for an appeal) that they simply need to appeal before taking this to civil court. And once in civil court they'll very likely drive entire armies through the holes in the RFU regulations.

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Post by quind Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:17 pm

Massive ban for Mike Scott, the employee at LW responsible for so much of this mess:

Mike Scott is suspended from the management, coaching or playing of rugby football union in any capacity or from membership of any club affiliated to the RFU for life. He may not apply to vary this order for a minimum period of 10 years (until after 7 March 2023).

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Post by quind Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:37 pm

Sniveling little toads say the following:

Chairman of London Welsh RFC, Bleddyn Phillips, commenting on the Decision of the RFU Panel of Inquiry issued on Thursday evening and yesterday's decision of His Honour Judge Jeff Blackett at the Misconduct Hearing relating to its former Team Manager Mike Scott, states:

“I can confirm that London Welsh RFC (the 'Club') is appealing the Decision of the RFU Panel and would like to thank its supporters and numerous well wishers for their sympathy and understanding regarding what the Club considers was an unnecessarily harsh and disproportionate sanction imposed on it by the RFU Panel of Inquiry.

The Club, and indeed the RFU, was the unwitting victim of a fraudulent act which the Club sought to address in the appropriate manner as soon as it became aware of it.

It takes exception to the comment by the Chairman of the Panel, Mr Summers, in the RFU press statement released on Thursday evening, that 'the matter..included conduct that was dealt with by the police..' which might by some be taken as implying that the Club itself was somehow complicit in such conduct. In fact, it was the Club itself which had unearthed the fraudulent act by its former Team Manager, and reported it immediately to the police (and the RFU).

As a result, the individual in question has been cautioned by the police and, at a Misconduct Hearing yesterday, has been suspended for life from the game of Rugby Union by His Honour Judge Jeff Blackett, who noted that this individual had dishonestly misled both the Club and the RFU. As the Misconduct Hearing itself reported yesterday, this is a very sad case where discredit has been brought upon the individual concerned and the Club. Any suggestion that the Club had any complicity in these criminal acts would be false and unfair.

Similarly unfair and harsh is the suggestion in the Decision of the RFU Panel that the Club was somehow acting intentionally in the matter and had authorised the actions of its Team Manager. This was clearly not the case as was recognised also in the decision yesterday of HHJ Jeff Blackett. Further, the club has, in the course of the season, properly and expeditiously registered a number of overseas players demonstrating it does have controls and checks in place. What it could not do was stop a deliberately fraudulent act which was concealed from it and the RFU by its former Team Manager.

We can be rightly proud of the way the Club, and the players and coaching staff in particular, have performed throughout the season notwithstanding the financial and operational challenges arising as a result of the Club's late entrance as a newcomer into the Premiership last summer. This point was also recognised in yesterday's decision.

We will continue to give of our best for the remaining games of the season notwithstanding the obvious impact on the morale of players and supporters alike of such a Decision by the RFU Panel.”

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Post by quind Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:37 pm

Unwitting my arse. Witless perhaps.

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Post by MattDwarfer Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:40 am

London Welsh do seem to like going through the legal process, after their promotion issues last year. They've really got no case here - previous teams have been docked a point for one game, which would make 10 points the right deduction here.

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Post by quind Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:51 am

Not quite the same. Other teams were docked 1-2 points as their offence was deemed less severe, though some have also had 1-2 points per game with the whole served concurrently.

Welsh had a 5 point ban which is the top entry point, with another 5 points suspended.

They're behaviour to the ban is akin to a weasel. But I still fancy their chances in civil court, as I'd suspect the RFU regs would not hold up. Big call from Welsh though, they've spent a lot of money and taken on a fair amount of debt to be where they are. Go to court, lose, and have costs and that could be the club done. Of course they may think/know if the go down they're done anyway.

If they do end up in trouble they will not receive much sympathy

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Post by quind Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:03 pm

Appeal decision announced.

The 5 point suspended fine has been lifted, but the 5 points ban in place for this season remains.

Not sure why they even lifted the suspended sanction, suggests something was wrong with the original decision, a point that might be raised if/when this goes to civil court.

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Post by quind Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:51 pm



Last edited by Roob on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link didn't work)

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Post by quind Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:56 pm

I commented before lawyers be bonkers, and that might not be fair, as one of the panel isn't indicated as a QC, and so it might not just be the lawyers who are bonkers.

If anyone hasn't read the judgement in full I'd like to call attention to paragraph 26:

Having indicated that we do not propose to deal with the matter on the basis that standards in this case had fallen “significantly below the standard reasonably to be expected of a professional club” it cannot be said that the panel below erred in reaching that conclusion. Two members of the panel at first instance have substantial experience of the administration of Clubs which is not unusual because sporting disciplinary bodies are often composed of
individuals who have experience of administration of the game. It is entirely proper for those panel members to utilise their experience of the game and administrative practices. As we have – as encouraged by the parties – considered the case afresh the members of this appeal Panel feel unable to adopt the same approach unassisted by any evidence or experience to guide us.


- Now I don't want to be too critical, not having the benefits (sic) of a law degree. But does that not say as we don't know as much about this stuff as the first panel, and in the face of admitting our comparative ignorance, we shall ignore their work and just make this crap up as we go along?

This does make me angry. As some aspect of appeal was successful no claim for costs will be pursued. So the money we hand over in TV rights, a % of shirt sales, ticket prices is going to the (i presume drunken) cretins coming up with nonsense like this appeal judgment.


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Post by Raggs Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:53 am

I haven't read the rest, but it doesn't quite read like that to me. More:

They knew what they were talking about when it comes to running a club, we don't, so we're not even going to bother talking about it.
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Post by quind Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:17 am

But if this panel admits they don't know as much as the previous judgment panel

'this appeal Panel feel unable to adopt the same approach unassisted by any evidence or experience to guide us.'

Then why the hell are they amending the sentence? And this apart from being a big waste of money strikes me very much as the sort of ruling that can be ripped apart in civil court, as it'll look like the outcome has just been made up on the hoof, and not based on a set of rules.

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Post by Raggs Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:03 am

Because they want to feel important?
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Post by quind Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:35 am

We're QCs, bow before us minions. Could be.

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Post by quind Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:38 pm

LW say they're taking this no further. Finally.

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