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England Vs Italy

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ostino
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Post by The Zec Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:16 pm

Still grates on me that Ashton's being picked over Wade, Sharples, May, or just about any other English winger.
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Post by Raggs Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:25 pm

I do wonder how long the whole 17 tries in 34 games will keep him going, considering the first 15 tries occurred in the first 17 or so games... since then we've had 2 I believe..

2 in 17 doesn't sound so good. I know we've not been playing that great, but even so.
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Post by The Zec Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:26 pm

IIRC Savea is still worth more than 5 points per game. Next to that Ashtons scoring record looks like a joke...
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Post by quind Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Give Ashton Savea's chances and see what happens then

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Post by The Zec Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:55 pm

touché
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Post by quind Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:02 pm

I have no real objection if Ashton is dropped, he's not setting the world alight. Just think we need an idea of what we want in the backs and back three. And I agree with Ashton, he's doing many of the same things that got him so much praise not so long back.

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Post by quind Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:31 am

Team is as leaked. Save it's Croft on the bench, not Billy V

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Post by ostino Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:42 pm

A little scared? Wink

Well at the end the most classy team win, not the one who show better game. Well done england

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Post by Wingnut Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:54 pm

cheers osti
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Post by quind Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:58 pm

If Italy had some decent halves they could have easily won today, not the first time that's been said, likely not the last.

Mind if they were a better team the offside law might have been applied once or twice.

Poor from England, both in execution, and then dropping still further in level after not getting points on the board.

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Post by Raggs Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:42 am

Lots of people saying that the ref wasn't quick enough to penalise the english, especially late in the second half. But I saw the last 20 mins or so, including all that on the line defence, and I saw the tacklers constantly making an effort to move away, people staying on their feet as absolutely best as possible, and when they failed, trying to roll to the side to be out the way. Really don't agree with the folks claiming that Italy were denied a lot of penalties in that period of the game (can't talk about the rest).
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Post by The Zec Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:18 pm

FWIW I thought Clancy refereed the game very well. Particularly the breakdown. He was very clearly making an effort to keep the game flowing, and to be honest I think he did a decent job of it.
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Post by quind Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:06 pm

Teams didn't really smash into the breakdown though, it was backfoot offside line that was more of an issue

And Blind George nearly has his TJ yellow card him at one point

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Post by Raggs Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:49 am

Managed to watch the first 20 mins on iplayer so far. Bloody hell we looked in control, but completely unable to put any sort of finish in place. And silly mistakes given the Italians easy ways to strike back at us.

The breakdown was again in the first 20, like the last, with the English really making an effort to clear away if they were tackler, ref appreciated it (saw him telling Launch in the last 15 or so that he's alright as he struggled to free himself from a forest of legs).
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Post by Raggs Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:17 am

Read a lot of people that say Barritt had a bad game, but I really don't think he did, there's still maybe 15 mins I haven't seen, but he played pretty much as he always has in my eyes.

The issue was, we were opening up, and Barritt doesn't have an attacking game. It's not that his attacking game was any better in previous matches, just that in the rain and stodgy games, it was never really required.

Goode didn't have a good day, and I think if we have just one decent distributor in the backs (burns/36) we'll really begin to wonder if we need him there. The butchered overlap is pretty much all on him in my mind.

Ashton had another bad game. I know a few people say he's doing what he's always done, and that recently he hasn't had Foden and Flood to feed off of, but that's the thing, I haven't once seen him track one of Floods many half breaks, he always comes in after the initial half break (this is exactly how he got his first try scoring chance). And if he works best with Foden and Flood, why do we keep running him in a team with Farrell and Goode?

That first chance, the tackle from the lock was great, but I still reckon Ashton has lost some pace and acceleration, and that another winger may have slipped free. But it's hard to tell. What really made me think he's lost all confidence in himself was when he got it on the wing, with a straight footrace with the italian 12 (who was having to come across the pitch), and didn't even come close to backing himself, he kept running at 60% and was waiting for an awful pass back in. Pedal to the metal, he should have been clear (don't know if the Italian FB would have been anywhere to catch him, but it should have been a 30m run regardless). I can't hold the Italian try against him though, wasn't his fault.

Flood didn't look all bad to me to be honest, nothing special, but nothing terrible either, and those half breaks he was making gave us at least one of our missed try scoring opportunities (well 2 attempts after the same break, ashton and the overlap). Kicking was obviously very solid from the tee, bit disappointed with the missed kicks for touch, but it's not as though Farrell hasn't been guilty of those quite often too.

Much as I like Care, and think he did some good stuff, he wasn't passing well, and I can see Youngs starting against Wales. I wonder if Care may be better against Phillips though.

Mako looked the bees knees, much more noticeable in the loose than Marler, and a good scrummaging effort too, even when he missed his binding he managed to stay stable and get hold of it a few seconds later. I reckon he'll be starting next week.

T Youngs had a good game, and his throwing is looking better and better, only seen one or two that didn't look spot on, and they weren't exactly terrible (caused problems though).

Still got the last 25-30 mins to watch through so I guess things can still change a lot Very Happy, though I saw most the last 20 live, I would think I'll stick to my opinion.
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Post by quind Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:51 pm

I don't really see Goode as being in the team as a distributor in the main, though he did act there against Italy at times. He's a moneyball selection with regards to his depth coverage.

That said Goode did help the team a lot at times acting as an auxiliary scrum half, though back to moneyball that means we don't have a full back keeping depth in the attack.

For the move down the wing where Ashton passed infield, well first I think the pass was fine, calling it bad was just another odd call from Blind George. And I'd tend to think Ashton should have held a line on the inside of the defender and then backed himself on the outside. But also looking at that break it was yet another 4 on 3 (with Ashton left out of that) butchered with poor running lines and worse passing, Tuilagi should have been sent clear with Ashton in support

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Post by Raggs Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 pm

Ashton should have backed himself, the italian 12 was still a good 10m away, and that was horizontally, no way should he have been able to catch Ashton, instead Ashton waited until the italians drifted across before sending a pass back inside (good, bad or otherwise).

Watched the rest now, and Mclean has basically just beaten Ashton twice in a footrace. The first time he was stopped by someone else, the second time it looked almost as though Ashton had already given up, but when Goode slowed Mclean down and sheparded him across onto the line Ashton was "running", Ashton crashed his elbows into McLeans back and then managed to drag him down. I also noticed Ashton doesn't like competing for those kicks he chases, he's happy to tackle the guy as he hits the ground, but the one time he jumped for the ball he stopped looking at it, and twisted out of the way of the Italian coming the other way.

Probably being very harsh on Ashton , but I really saw very little good from him, and plenty that disappointed me. He just doesn't seem to believe in himself, he doesn't chase, he doesn't back himself for pace. Maybe he's got an injury, maybe he's not as fast as he was, but something is not right.
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Post by quind Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:29 am

England (v Wales, Saturday, 5pm, Millennium Stadium, live on BBC One)
15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 10 caps)
14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 33 caps)
13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 20 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 15 caps)
11. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 15 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 15 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 9 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 39 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 8 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps)
6. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 16 caps)
8. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 17 caps)

Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 46 caps)
17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 25 caps)
18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 8 caps)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 19 caps)
20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 49 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 40 caps)
22. Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)

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